Deep Dive in 2025 with Bobby Rahal

BRUCE:

IndyCar fans, it's time to start your engines. Welcome to Pit Pass Indy, a production of Evergreen Podcast. I'm your host, Bruce Martin, a journalist who regularly covers the NTT IndyCar Series. Our goal at Pit Pass Indy is to give racing fans an insider's view of the exciting world of the NTT IndyCar Series in a fast-paced podcast featuring interviews with the biggest names in the sport. I bring nearly 40 years of experience covering IndyCar and NASCAR, working for such media brands as NBCSports.com, SI.com, ESPN SportsTicker, Sports Illustrated, AutoWeek and SpeedSport. So let's drop the green flag on this episode of Pit Pass Indy. Happy New Year to everyone from Pit Pass Indy as we begin our fifth season of giving IndyCar fans an inside look at the most exciting form of racing on the planet, the NTT IndyCar Series. As we get back to work in the early days of 2025, we have a deep dive interview with 1986 Indianapolis 500 winning driver and current IndyCar team owner Bobby Rahal. Rahal turns 72 on January 10th and continues to move full speed ahead with his three-driver IndyCar team that includes his son, Graham Rahal, who this year will be paired with two younger drivers, including Devlin DeFrancesco and rookie Louis Foster, the 2024 IndyNext by Firestone champion. Ray Hall is also an influential team owner in both IndyCar and IMSA. During his time behind the wheel of a race car, Ray Hall was one of the big-name stars of his era. He won the Indianapolis 500 in 1986 and won the CART PPG IndyCar World Series in 1986, 1987, and 1992. During his IndyCar career as a driver that began in 1982 and lasted through the 1998 season, Rahal won 24 races as a driver. Rahal experienced the highest of highs, but also endured some low moments, including the 1993 Indianapolis 500, when he became the first defending series champion to get bumped out of the field in the Indy 500 since Kelly Patio in 1936. Rahal reflects on that disappointment later in this exclusive interview for Pit Pass Indy. Before that, however, Rahal speaks on a variety of big picture topics, including IndyCar in 2025, and the reason he is so optimistic for continued growth, and his thoughts on adding two new drivers to Rahal Letterman-Lanigan Racing in 2025. Here is my exclusive interview with Bobby Rahal for Pit Pass Indy. Joining us now on Pit Pass Indy, it's always an honor and a privilege to once again talk to 1986 Indianapolis 500 winning driver and multiple Indy 500 winning team owner, Bobby Rahal. Bobby, we're getting ready for the 2025 season. I think IndyCar ended 2024 on a little bit more of an upbeat note than it began 2024 with, because you remember a year ago, IndyCar was having all kinds of issues, delaying the hybrid assist program, getting criticism from Honda about whether they wanted to continue or not, but it really seems like the season has ended much better than it began.

BOBBY:

Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.

BRUCE:

And what do you see is the reason why that's been? It seems like in a lot of ways that they were able to maybe address some of their problems and make a positive path for the future.

BOBBY:

I think the most obvious thing was the Fox TV deal, which is absolutely huge for IndyCar. You know, we've never had a television package like that before. You know, the fact that Fox is out of NASCAR, that they're with us solely, that we're on every network race, every race we have is network. network produced that, I mean, all of us as team owners, and maybe the drivers and what have you, I don't know. But I mean, the value of the series just went and doubled overnight, and maybe even tripled. I think we'll see when the ratings first start coming in, but you're already seeing so much promotion of IndyCar by Fox. You know, they, they've had, you know, guys at the, you know, they, Graham was at the Ohio state Michigan game. They've had other guys drive a car up here and at the national, the, at the, uh, uh, Well, Mark Ingram drove a car on big noon kickoff for the Indiana Nebraska game. Exactly. So there's already a tremendous amount of promotion happening on Fox. And you know, we're, we're what, three months away from the four months away from the first race. So that's just going to ramp up. And so I think that That was certainly the biggest positive that happened over the course of 2024. I mean, I think you have to look at the, also, I think the hybrid, while it was delayed, I think it was successful in terms of, yeah, there were little glitches here and there, but for the most part, it did what it was supposed to do and it was reliable. And as I said, early on, there were a couple of occasions when things didn't work as they should, but For the for the majority of the teams that were using it on any given weekend. It was it was a trouble-free so I think that's That was a big plus of course the racing is great of course now You know then then the Arlington, Texas race is announced that is huge right for us and I So I think it's just one positive after the other. And then, of course, the onset of the charters, which is something that IndyCar Race has been trying to achieve for I can't tell you how many years, even dating back to the days of CART, and yet never was able to really put it together. Now we've got that. So I mean, I think from a business standpoint, as an owner, and from a popularity standpoint, I think it's just all good. And, uh, it's going to be, um, I think 25 is going to be another great year. I have no doubt. And, um, you know, then again, then 26, a lot of excitement about Arlington. I think I hear there's other things coming. I don't know what that might be, but you know, there's other, uh, announcements coming. So, uh, so that, you know, in the end, I think you've got to, you know, you're right. It was, it was, um, uh, a 180 degree turn from the beginning of the year to the end of the year, and that's all good.

BRUCE:

Do you sense renewed excitement and enthusiasm from your engine partner at Honda? Because they were a year ago talking about, it's a lot of money to be involved in this sport and we have to make it to where it makes business sense for us to do it in the model that they have. And they even suggested maybe a common ICU with Honda and Chevrolet having proprietary electronics.

BOBBY:

Well, I take those words with a large grain of salt because, frankly, for the teams, most of the increased cost came because Honda insisted that there was a hybrid system. So, you know, it's a little disingenuous to complain about the expenses when you're the one who's... Promoted or asked or demanded that a new system come in We spent about two and a half million dollars more than we did the previous year and that was just on getting the cars Specific to the hybrid system buying the hybrid system buying all the components that are necessary for them. So Yeah, that's a little disingenuous Clearly, you know, they they do see value in it. You know, it is the biggest sport in that they're involved with in North America in terms of when it's automotive related. I mean, IMSA does not draw the crowds, does not have the television ratings that IndyCar has. So it's still their biggest program. But, you know, do we want more promotion? Well, you know, I think we're going to get that now with Fox. So I think that they saw that and realized that there is value here. I mean, I wish they would do a lot more promotion, merchandise, and other involvement in IndyCar. They don't really do anything. So it's kind of like, well, if you want more value, you got to help create that. So anyway, they're in it. They're in it to stay. I have no doubt of that. And I hear all kinds of rumors of a third manufacturer pretty much on the doorstep. Obviously, if that were to happen, I think both Chevy and Honda would be very happy about that and welcome whoever it might be because it is expensive. There's no doubt of that. But, you know, they've been great partners. Chevy's been a great partner of IndyCar racing. Of course, Honda has as well since, what, 1994. So, you know, it's, as I say, I think with events like Arlington coming up, of course the 500 is, you can't match the 500 with the Fox deal, all this other stuff I think that IndyCar's the place for Honda to be in.

BRUCE:

there's a lot of people that can go back 30, 35, 40 years. Remember how the sport was at that time and how card had built up this great championship and how the Indianapolis 500 was like the Woodstock of all sporting events. And the people that may not want to see a lap of the race wanted to go to the infield, the party, because it just had that vibe. Then we saw a little bit of a decline in the Indianapolis 500 was still huge, but there was a period 10 years ago, we may have seen some empty seats here and there in the grandstands. And now I think it's like, you gotta have a ticket or you're not going to get to see it live.

BOBBY:

500 is as good as it ever was. There is no doubt that, I mean, it's a great month, you know, with having the the, uh, you know, the Indy GP there, you know, leading off the month of May, then of course qualifying. Then of course, you know, the race, you know, uh, you know, third carb day, you know, big, big day, you know, that didn't exist 10, 20 years ago, um, uh, in terms of the concerts and what have you. So it's, it's become a real event. And, um, And so, you're right. I mean, now you go there and you gotta have a ticket. That's just all there is to it. And that's the way it should be. And I don't think. From what I can see from the outside, I don't think that Penske Group is satisfied with that. I think they wanna continue to build it to be even greater. And that's, of course, that's in everybody's best interest. So yeah, the month of May is really something. And we always look forward to that month because it is so special.

BRUCE:

Well, it even got to the point during the 2024 season where even some team owners in the paddock, including one who's no longer in the paddock, actually criticized Roger for not spending more of his own money. And I sit back and I think, if Roger hadn't bought this place before COVID, you can only imagine where we would be right now.

BOBBY:

God knows where we would be. And I tell that, I say, thank God for Roger Penske because, you know, I think you really have to seriously, who would have done what he did? I don't know. I don't see, I can't see anybody right off hand that would have done what Roger had to do. And obviously, he did it because of not buying the track. Of course, that was his passion anyway. But then of course, two months later, three months later, you get the shutdown in this country. The poor guy, I mean, I've never felt sorry for Roger, but I did during that time because here you spend all this money and now you've got the mayor of Indianapolis telling you what you can and cannot do. And you've got Roger, and not just the speed, not just the 500, but the other races. you know, uh, obviously they had to, uh, I'm sure that a lot of the racetracks came back and said, yeah, we'll hold a race, but it's going to be for this amount. Now, not that amount. And, uh, so, uh, yeah, well, what, what we would have done without Roger, I got only knows, and I don't think it would have been very good for IndyCar racing.

BRUCE:

But you've known Roger long enough to know that he didn't become one of the world's great businessmen by just throwing money left and right. He's always made smart, calculated business decisions. And when there were people squawking around Milwaukee about why doesn't IndyCar go to Mexico City, NASCAR beat him to the punch. As Mark Miles explained to me, it wasn't it's not a race against NASCAR to be who's the first to Mexico City. Right. When we go to Mexico City, we want it to be done the right way. And he's confident that Mexico City one day will be a big event on the IndyCar schedule.

BOBBY:

Yeah, well, yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, I think that the so far I'd have to say the moves have been making. And of course, Arlington's the big one. you know, it's, those are the types of places that we need to be in. And, um, you know, we had a, we had a owner's meeting, I don't know, two months ago now, I suppose. And, you know, and I made the point that to me, I don't care what the layout of the track is. I care about the market that we're in. And so if it's an oval, it's an oval, if it's a road course or street course, that's what it's, you know, that's, that's, but for us to be in the Dallas, Fort Worth area, Arlington, Texas, um, And I know this race will be huge because of the people involved, the guys behind it, Jerry Jones and all that, and Roger, of course, and I'm sure there's others. you know, as crazy as Texas was and as amazing, the kind of racing that took place at Texas Speedway, nobody ever showed up. And so it's, you know, now we've got a venue, I think, in that marketplace that will really be an amazing event. And so that excites you. And, you know, there's probably other places that need to be looked at as well, because every race should be really strong in its own right.

BRUCE:

Well, the sad thing about Texas Bounder Speedway was in the very beginning, it did draw huge crowds, but it just seemed like over time, both the attendance for IndyCar and NASCAR just started to really dramatically tail off. And I don't know whether it's just people saw enough of it that they moved on to other things or different generations or interested in different things, but that was a tentpole event for both NASCAR and IndyCar for a long time. But leading to the group that we are going to deal with with the Grand Prix of Arlington, every Dallas Cowboys home game, they're showing on their video screens during commercial breaks, advertisements, videos promoting the Grand Prix of Arlington. That is the type of publicity that is invaluable.

BOBBY:

That's correct. And you want to know why Formula One draws huge crowds now in this country? That's because they do the same thing, but on a worldwide basis. And so events like Vegas, Austin, Texas, Miami, You know, there's a lot of people there because it's a sport that's promoted heavily all year long. And people want, and of course they come from all over the world. And for IndyCar, we, you know, that's the kind of promoters, you know, the Speedway does it for the 500, but that's the kind of promotions that you really need in any sport, you know, to really make it successful is you've got to go out there and spread the word and, you know, and make it a compelling, give people a compelling reason to attend. And when they get that, then they're there. And I think that race will be huge.

BRUCE:

The Texas Rangers are also involved, and in 2023, they were the World Series champions. I've always thought that when you have partners like the Dallas Cowboys and the NFL, the Texas Rangers, the Major League Baseball, that if you just tap into their ticket database and start marketing and promoting the race to them, if you get a 20% return, people that are Dallas Cowboys, I mean, they draw, what, 85,000 to a Cowboys home game, you get 20% of that. It's a pretty good number. And then on top of that, you have the race fans buying tickets. And as Mark Miles likes to describe it already, it's going to be a tentpole event on the IndyCar schedule.

BOBBY:

Well, not just that, but sponsors. First off, obviously Dallas-Fort Worth area is a huge center for business, even worldwide for that matter. But when you've got, you'll now have Our sponsors, other teams' sponsors, they're all gonna wanna have an event there because there's a big marketplace for them. And we've just inked a sponsorship with a company that's based out of there that'll be announced one of these days soon. I mean, that's gonna be huge for them. So not only do events obviously drive spectator interest, but they drive sponsor interest. Whether it's sweets, tents, dinners, I mean, you name it. And so those kinds of events are just great because it really, look at Nashville. The first couple of Nashville races, same thing, spots, everybody wanted to be there. That unfortunately was not the case on the Oval. But hopefully we'll be back there, and when they get downtown Nashville sorted out, and the corporate side will come back again. But you've got to keep that in mind. Why is Long Beach, for example, so successful? Same thing. Southern California market tradition. It's a place to be, and sponsors want to be a part of that. So yeah, I think Arlington's going to be just a huge hit.

BRUCE:

We'll be right back to Pit Pass Indie after this short break. Welcome back to Pit Pass Indie. Here is part two of my exclusive interview with Bobby Rahal. Speaking of Long Beach. Roger Pinsky bought, yes, Roger Pinsky purchased the Long Beach Grand Prix, which ensures that it's not going anywhere. It's not going to be an ass car race. It's not going to be a Formula One race. It's going to remain an IndyCar race.

BOBBY:

Another, you know, in the plus column, you know, that's happened in 2024 with the series is, you know, You know, I thanked Roger when he, when I read about it, called him and sent him a note and said, thanks very much for your, for purchasing Long Beach. You know, he gets it. And, and, you know, again, that's, that's, you know, Long Beach Grand Prix now has been in existence since 1975 and IndyCar since 84. And so that's a long time. And that, that race is very important to us, to our teams. So to, to have that commitment again, that Roger's made, that IndyCar has made to this kind of an event, that's huge for us.

BRUCE:

The other thing that I always marvel about the Long Beach Grand Prix was that's gonna celebrate its 50th anniversary in 2025. But if you tried to start that race today with the political climate that exists in California, it'd never be approved.

BOBBY:

Well, I mean, I remember going to Long Beach to watch the Grand Prix in 1977. That was the race that Mario won. And Long Beach wasn't a very nice city in those days. I mean, it was pretty rough. You know, it was a Navy town. Lots of strip joints, tattoo parlors, bars. There wasn't much, you know, It was pretty rough. And there's no question that the population said, hey, we got to do something to, I don't know if I want to say, resurrect or to create a new city and a new place. And boy, I wouldn't dare say that the race was the only reason that you see the turnaround in Long Beach over the years. But I think it played a big part of that. And so you look at Long Beach today, pictures of it today, and you look at it in 1977, and it was like, night and day difference.

BRUCE:

Well, I believe that the TV backdrop of the Long Beach Grand Prix added a certain element of glamour that then probably the people in the city probably took that and improved upon it. It really seems that a lot of people are entering the 2025 season much more upbeat. It's going to be a little bit different dynamic though because now we have the charter system It's a program I know was important to you, important to a lot of team owners. Why was the charter system so important to implement?

BOBBY:

Well, because it created, it creates and has created already value for the teams. And when I say value, it's not like we're getting a check for X amount every, every year. But, um, But if somebody wants to come in, this is the same in NASCAR, certainly the same in Formula One, same in Major League Baseball, same in NFL, same in basketball. You want in, you got to buy somebody out. And that's what creates the value. If MLB allowed teams to spring up anywhere, then it wouldn't have the value that it has today. And same thing with NASCAR. I mean, look at the value, the rumored value that Chip Ganassi got out of selling his charters in NASCAR far exceeded what the value of them was in the beginning. And it's just because as NASCAR has built the value of the series up, people want to be a part of that. And so the charter system for us now gives the teams, whether it's us or Dale Coyne, Roger Penske, whomever, it creates value. It's created value. Otherwise, the value that you had in your team was just whatever the value of your assets were, your trucks and trailers and maybe cars and maybe a building. But that was it. And of course, that's nothing compared to what you may have invested in that team over the years.

BRUCE:

So if you're a team like Prima or if you're Dennis Reinbold and you want to get back into full-time racing and you fall into the open category, how difficult is that?

BOBBY:

Well, I mean, I've already heard some people have sold some portions of their teams to people to get in. Don't forget, you know, I think some of these teams, there's been personal money invested in them by the owners or by partners of the owners or whomever to ensure that they qualified for the charter. So there's been investments made. It's not like it was just been a freebie. And so, you know, for a Dennis or for Prima, you want the benefits. that IndyCar can really provide, then, you know, I'm sorry, but you got to do what everybody else did. And so, you know, right now I don't see any sellers, frankly, and I don't know precisely, but, you know, again, now there's value. And now you get, you know, my door has been knocked on by several private equity firms that are looking to, you know, we'd like to buy 40% of the company, of your company. And, um, you know, okay, let's talk cause that's never happened before. No one's ever, no one's ever knocked on my door before to say they wanted to do that. So that's the value that's created. So now it's giving the team owners some, you know, some basis from which to, um, to grow.

BRUCE:

And when you think that, 12 years ago, you were running the Indy 500 and maybe a couple of other races. And that was pretty much all you could do at that time after being a full-time participant. So that in itself really does show that there is more interest and more value.

BOBBY:

And it's not going to diminish the value of the racing. It's going to increase the value of the racing for those fans. And again, venues like Arlington or other venues are going to be interested in hosting IndyCar races because there is, maybe I'm overusing the word value, but I think that's so central to the whole thing is the value of the series has gone up as a result.

BRUCE:

A different part of the paddock this year, a change in the dynamic, and I'll say that The two of you had a rivalry as racers, had a rivalry as team owners, but Michael Andretti is not going to be part of the paddock in 2025. How big a shock was that to you? And how different will it be not seeing Michael and Mario as often as we've seen them?

BOBBY:

Yeah, well, I think it's a shame. I don't know what all happened there, but yeah, but Michael's, been so involved in this series for so many years, both as a driver and as an owner. To be frank, I think it's kind of, I think it's a loss for the series to not have a Michael in there on the paddock every, I mean, he was a dynamic, is a dynamic guy, you know, had long, very successful periods of time in the series. with either Honda or Chevy, brought up a lot of great racing drivers, Dario and others. It's gonna be very strange to not see him in the paddock. And I think that's a loss for IndyCar, I really do. And I don't know, Mario's probably gonna be pretty busy with his Formula One program, I would think. So, yeah, it's a shame. And I have no doubt that If anybody's going to feel bad about it, it's going to be Michael. So I think we're definitely going to miss having him in the paddock.

BRUCE:

You used to be involved in Formula One. You ran the Jaguar team there for a bit back around the turn of the millennium. Are you surprised that there was just this huge level of pushback by the current Formula One

BOBBY:

principles against Michael Andretti. Despite what you might say about Liberty, they've created a monster, really, in a sense of the value. Of course, going to tracks that historically were never Formula One tracks and probably didn't even exist at the time. And at some point, to the detriment of the old tracks, the traditional Formula One tracks in Europe, Bahrain and Singapore, all those races just did nothing but pour money into Formula One. And the teams benefited from that. And of course, now you have manufacturers in the series, which you didn't have years ago. But the fact that, You know, Formula One has not historically been as financially successful as it is today. I mean, certainly during the reign of Bernie, you know, he made millionaires out of a lot of guys that were mechanics or whatever at one point in time. You know, Ron Dennis certainly comes to mind. Eddie Jordan, who I knew Eddie quite well from racing back in the late 70s. Tom Walkinshaw. I mean, the names go on and on. But, you know, they've worked hard to get to where they're at. And so they don't wanna, they don't feel compelled that they have to welcome outsiders. There's no, without it, without being about benefiting from that, right? And so I, I, that did not surprise me because, you know, the Europeans or the Formula One world is a very narrow world. It's a very selfish world. It's, you know, it's all about, you know, what's in it for me, not what's in it for the series. And, you know, I remember one, a little brief vignette. We were talking about, this is 2000, we're talking about how do we, you know, how does Formula One, you know, move funding to the less well-financed teams? So to the Eddie Jordans, to the Walkinshaws, to people like that. And I ventured, I said, we're in a team principle. I mean, I said, well, we should probably think about what the NFL does where they equally share in the TV money so that a small market like Green Bay can compete against a big market like New York City. And they looked at me like I had the third eye, like you want us to share equal? And I said, no, their world is you got to earn it. And if you want more money, you got to figure out how to earn that. And so, yeah, I was not surprised.

BRUCE:

But yet, once Michael Andretti is out of the way, they're more than happy to bring in a new team, Dan Taurus, and also General Motors, but Cadillac, which is what Formula One wanted all along, was General Motors and Cadillac.

BOBBY:

Yeah, well, I think, I mean, that's a real feather in their cap to have, you know, how many manufacturers in it now? And Toyota getting back in now. So, For sure. I don't know all the ins and outs of that. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure the real story will come out at some point in time. But for GM and Cadillac, that's a big deal. And for Formula One, it's a big deal.

BRUCE:

We'll be right back to Pit Pass Indy after this short break. Welcome back to Pit Pass Indie. Here's the rest of my exclusive interview with Bobby Rayhall. Switching topics to Rahal Letterman Lanigan Racing. You made big news by announcing Devlin DeFrancesco was not only going to be driving for you, but a multi-year agreement. What was it about Devlin that decided not only to put him in the car, but to have a multi-year agreement?

BOBBY:

Well, I mean, we actually got close to putting a deal together in 2024 for Devlin. And it didn't quite work out. You know, I've always liked Evelyn. Now he's shown pace. You know, on the Andretti team, I think he was kind of the odd man out a little bit, but he's shown pace. And a very personable young guy. I mean, he is quite young, but if you look at his track record, you know, in Formula 3, Formula 2, and last year, of course, in MSA, he did a super job in the P2 category. And I think that's a great, teaching I think I think sports car racing and endurance racing is a great teacher to To young drivers because of the length of the races and what-have-you And I just you know, I felt that you know this year he you know had improved and so we thought it was worth rolling the dice a bit, giving him a shot, just as we did with Louis Foster. You know, Louis was very impressive in Indy Lights, or in Indy Next, I should say. Very impressive, and dominated the category, frankly. And we've already seen what he can do. We've tested a couple times with Louis, and I think he's really quite a special driver. And I think Devlin, under our Um, tutelage can, can get to where he wants to go, which is to be, you know, one of the better guys in the series and a potential race winner. So I think that there's potential there. Um, and, um, and, uh, to have that commitment, um, uh, for us as a team, for him as a driver, I think is important. So, uh, I mean, that's the way things used to be really, you know, when you sign a driver, it was always a multi-year deal. And it's a bit of a leap of faith at any time you do that, but whether you're a sponsor of a race team or whatever, but I think it was worth the price and we'll, I think we're gonna have some, you know, we've redone our engineering group in a large way and I think we're gonna have a good year.

BRUCE:

We all remember Graham Rahal when he was a kid, and he really is a veteran driver now because the other two drivers that are involved in the team now are younger. They're young, they're much younger than him. So in some ways, do we see maybe a little bit of a change in the way Graham approaches the 2025 season?

BOBBY:

You know, I've always, I mean, last year, Pedro Fettipaldi said he was the best teammate he'd ever had, and Graham, I mean, Graham would, Graham would, you know, as they do the track walk, you know, you didn't have to ask him a question. He'd volunteer, okay, here, you need to be careful of this or that. And, you know, I think Graham's always been a guy that shares. uh, information. He's not jealous of sharing that. He's not, uh, you know, he knows it's good for the team if everybody performs. So, um, I'm, I'm really excited about, you know, we brought Eve Toronto, uh, an engineer with a lot of experience in IndyCar coming into the, uh, that'll engineer Graham Todd Malloy, who actually was Graham's engineer when he won at, um, at St. Pete way back in 2008. Todd was lead engineer or one of the main engineers at Newman Haas, Lanigan Racing, then of course won two Indy 500s under his belt and really a sharp guy. And so having Todd as our lead race engineer, plus Eve, plus the experience of the young guys that we've had from the last couple of years, I really feel strongly we're going to have a very good year. So, um, um, You know, I think it's a good time for Louie to be with us. I think it's a good time for Devlin, obviously, but I really think it's a good time for Graham because I think he's gonna get, on a consistent basis, the kinds of cars, you know, when you give him a good car, he's in top six qualifying and he's right there. Last year, you know, he had seven engine failures. And that's that equated to about 42 grid positions over the course of the year. So it's, um, you know, some of that's pretty hard to overcome, but I think that the, I think Graham's drive is no different today than it was when he first started. And, um, you know, clearly he's maybe getting tried. I retired at 45. He's only 35 right now. So he's got a lot of runway if he wants it, uh, yet. So, uh, All in all, I think it's a great pairing, or tripling, I guess, maybe that's the word, between Graham, Louie, and Devlin, and looking forward to a great year.

BRUCE:

This may be a bit of a delicate question to ask about Graham, but do you think you've been through the lowest moment that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway has to offer yourself as a driver when you didn't make the show in 1993 and you were the reigning IndyCar champion in 1992? Right. You know what that's like? You were able to take that, rejuvenate, and learn from it and go on to some great things afterwards. Graham was bumped out of the race, lowest moment as a racer. I mean, he's sitting there on pit lane crying. Was able to get back into the race as a replacement driver after Stefan Wilson was injured. But it really seemed to be, it gave your team a chance to re-evaluate itself. and make improvements. Do you see that lowest moment as a great learning lesson?

BOBBY:

Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, you know, it's, you obviously think you're doing things right. And then that happens and it's clear, and we're talking, you know, some such small differences between the fastest and the slowest guy in the field, you know, nowadays compared to years ago where there were big differences. But, but, you know, I mean, it was, you know, it's soul searching and it's not just for us as owners. But for the team, for everybody in the team to have that, I mean, that's a real failure, a real failing on the team. And of course, ultimately, I have to take responsibility for that because the buck stops here, as they say. But I think that, and even last year was close. ridiculously close shouldn't have been anywhere near as close obviously though then we get into the race and at one point Graham was running fifth you know from dead last on the grid so obviously the race cars aren't too bad it's the qualifying cars that are behind and so i think that uh... you know that uh... uh... You know, we learned lessons in 22 from the failure. We've learned lessons from last year and being so close to repeating. And I think we're going to be in a much better position this year than we were.

BRUCE:

I hate to go back to 1993, but I remember that day vividly. I do too. Yes. Well, you know, standing here on pit lane, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of the media hovered around. It's just watching your reaction. And it was getting to be pretty obvious that the way it was going to end up. And then you go back to the motor home and there's probably 25 media members, including myself that went over there. Tom Blattler was able to get you to come out. You stood out there, you faced the music, you were very diplomatic, gave a great answer. But how much did that hurt and how long did it hurt?

BOBBY:

When I really felt, I guess, the quote-unquote pain was, I was in our suite, I had a suite, one of the new ones, Tower Terrace Suites at the time, with all of our sponsors, and I'm sitting there watching the pace lap, and then it really hit me, because I actually, I didn't cry, but I got, emotional because I, I, I just, I need, I would belong down the track. I didn't belong right where I was in the suite, but you know, that's life. And, um, and you know, from that moment, you know, then you, um, you, you know, just go to work. And, um, and, and, and part of the reason that we, that we didn't qualify is we took on a pro, you know, we win the championship in 92. We took on a project, that we shouldn't have. But maybe our ego thought, hey, 92, we can do anything, right? And you can't do everything or anything. You've got to look at, there was no reason to You know, they call it hubris or call it whatever you want to call it. You know, we assumed too much and that assumption bit us. And, you know, there were people within the organization that believed we should, you know, we should have done what we did by getting involved with the True Sports program. But ultimately, again, it comes down to me. you know, you learn a lot. And, you know, there was, there were a lot, there was obviously some real bad things that came with that. You know, two days afterwards, I got a three year extension from Miller Brewing Company, you know, and, and we, we, we, we ended up with a building in Columbus, Ohio. That was a great building at the time for, for what we wanted to do. We ended up with a lot of equipment that, um, I don't know if we would have gone out and bought it all, but we ended up with a lot that we're still using today. And so, you know, it wasn't just all a negative. But the most important thing was learning our lesson, and we learned our lesson that day.

BRUCE:

And then the irony of all ironies is just two years later, after they had dominated the 94 Indianapolis 500 with the Mercedes-Benz pushrod engine, Team Penske does not make the field for the Indianapolis 500. So you can only imagine how tough that day was for Roger Penske to be there on race day and not be on pit lane.

BOBBY:

And when was it when Alonzo didn't qualify in the McLaren? You know, so it just shows you, and I think it's right, but all the questionnaires sent out to the fans about what would you do and not do in IndyCar racing, the overwhelming thing was keep bumping, keep that part of the, don't guarantee spots in the 500. You know, for the teams, that's a big risk, but I understand why they feel that way, because it really makes it something special to qualify for the Indy 500. And so, there's guarantees at every other race but that one. And of course, you don't have 33 cars at all the other races, so it's kind of easy to do. But still, yeah, it's very much of a valued aspect of the Indy 500 is qualifying.

BRUCE:

One challenge you've had to navigate in the offseason was when our friends at Hy-Vee made the decision that they were going to scale back a lot of their sports promotion involvement, not only in IndyCar, but in other sports. That obviously coincides with the retirement of Chairman Randy Edeker, who was a huge supporter of IndyCar. you help bring Hy-Vee to IndyCar. And for a while there, they were the blueprint role model of how a sponsor should promote their brand and promote IndyCar. Right. How difficult is it to move on without Hy-Vee? And I don't wanna ask if you're disappointed because they're still supporters of IndyCar, but not to the extent that they've been the last couple of years.

BOBBY:

Well, I'm very disappointed, obviously. I mean, we certainly felt that we were gonna continue. Very disappointed, not only to lose them as a sponsor, but to lose Christian. Cuz now we didn't have the wherewithal to keep him. Put a lot of pressure on the organization to replace that money, to replace that funding. And as you say, they were the blueprint for so much. And with, as they're expanding, you know, the IndyCar was, you know, you look at the markets that they've been expanding to and their IndyCar markets, you know, Nashville, Indianapolis, in Wisconsin, obviously you've got, you know, Milwaukee, Road America, you know, they're going into Birmingham, Alabama. So, you know, they were all kind of fitting together. Very disappointing, great people at Hy-Vee. We really enjoyed them. But this so often happens when a CEO retires and a new CEO comes in and every new CEO wants to make his own mark. And I think that's basically what happened. And so, yeah, very disappointed, but certainly we enjoyed our time with them.

BRUCE:

They've told me they're still going to be major supporters of Iowa. So that's got to be a good news, at least because the Iowa weekends, I consider it the highlight of the summer.

BOBBY:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, you look at like, as you said, just a few moments ago, I mean, they're the, it's a blueprint for how tracks should really promote, you know, a race. And, uh, uh, you know, so, um, you know, uh, Yeah, I mean, it's crazy when you think about it, what goes on there and the effort that Hy-Vee makes in putting all that together. I mean, it's huge. But it does take Iowa from what was once just a ho-hum event into really something very special.

BRUCE:

So how have you navigated business-wise around getting replacements for them?

BOBBY:

Well, I mean, we're still, you know, attracting new companies in, you know, doing everything we can to, to, you know, get everything fully funded. That's an ongoing enterprise for us. You know, every day we're out there knocking on doors like every other team. So, you know, but we're getting there and you know, we'll be, we'll be in good shape, but it's certainly, you know, when you find out and what was it August maybe I think it doesn't you know it gives you four months to you know find a replacement that's pretty hard to do.

BRUCE:

Are there some potential announcements coming soon with some partners?

BOBBY:

Yeah well we've got we've got a couple as I say we've signed up a couple new sponsors that will be announced later but good ones and I think ones that have a lot of runway for us So, um, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty positive about, um, uh, the, the new companies that were welcoming into the team. And as importantly, you know, um, I think a number of our existing ones are going to be extending. So that's very important too. So it's a combination of both.

BRUCE:

And our final question here with Bobby Rahal. Bobby, we're both at an age where people ask us, when are you going to retire? Well, when you love what you're doing, you don't retire. But what is it about your life that says you're just as fired up now as you were when you were racing?

BOBBY:

Racing is my life. I've been around it. since maybe, you know, I was born. I don't certainly remember the first five years or whatever, but you know, whether it was watching my dad race in the six fifties, sixties and early seventies and me racing, now Graham racing. I mean, this is our, this is my life. And so what else am I going to do? I'm not going to go sit on the beach. I'm not going to go read books. I'm not going to go, I don't know what I'm, you know, I'm not going to start painting. I'm not going to start. I mean, this has been my life. I'm 72 years old in January. And as I taught, people asked me, so when are you going to stop? And I said, I'm just not. I'm going to keep going until the day I can't. Because racing has really allowed me to live a very special life and to be so blessed in a lot of ways. And I love the people in racing. the tensions, the pressures, the competition, all that, it just motivates me. So we built that building, Mike and I, we didn't do that for a short term, we didn't do that for the next five years, we did that for the next 30 years.

BRUCE:

Well, Bobby, you certainly brought a lot of success and a lot of great moments on the track, but you also helped elevate the sport with a lot of class and a lot of dignity.

BOBBY:

Thank you.

BRUCE:

And that really added the luster to make IndyCar the unique sport that it really is. But I've always appreciated our conversations. Good luck in 2025. Have a very Merry Christmas. You too. And thank you for joining us on Pit Pass. All right. Thanks so much. And that puts a checkered flag on this edition of Pit Pass Indy. We want to thank our guest, 1986 Indianapolis 500 winning driver and owner of Rahal Letterman Lanigan Racing, Bobby Rahal, for joining us on this special edition of Pit Pass Indy. Along with loyal listeners like you, our guests help make Pit Pass Indy your path to victory lane in IndyCar. Be sure to look for an extra bonus edition of Pit Pass Indy later this week, featuring four-time Indianapolis 500 winner Elio Castroneves, who announced on January 6, 2025, that he will compete in this year's Daytona 500 NASCAR Cup Series race for the first time in his career. Castroneves will be part of the Project 91 effort at Trackhouse Racing as he makes his first career NASCAR Cup Series start. For more IndyCar coverage, follow me at X, previously known as Twitter, at BruceMartin, one word, uppercase B, uppercase M, underscore 500. This has been a production of Evergreen Podcast. A special thanks to our production team, executive producers are Bridget Coyne and Gerardo Orlando. Recordings and edits were done by me, Bruce Martin, and final mixing was done by Dave Douglas. Learn more at evergreenpodcast.com. Until next time, be sure to keep it out of the wall.