The 67th Daytona 500 With Josef Newgarden, NASCAR President Steve Phelps and IndyCar Spring Training with Darren Sansum, IndyCar Managing Director of Engine Development

BRUCE:

IndyCar fans, it's time to start your engines. Welcome to Pit Pass Indy, a production of Evergreen Podcast. I'm your host, Bruce Martin, a journalist who regularly covers the NTT IndyCar Series. Our goal at Pit Pass Indy is to give racing fans and insiders view of the exciting world of the NTT IndyCar Series in a fast-paced podcast featuring interviews with the biggest names in the sport. I bring nearly 40 years of experience covering IndyCar and NASCAR, working for such media brands as NBCSports.com, SI.com, ESPN SportsTicker, Sports Illustrated, AutoWeek and SpeedSport. So let's drop the green flag on this episode of Pit Pass Indy. Welcome to Pit Pass Indy as we continue our fifth season of giving IndyCar fans an inside look at the most exciting form of racing on the planet, the NTT IndyCar Series. Pit Pass Indy was at the 67th Daytona 500 and the race on Sunday, February 16th was a very long and wild day. It began with President Donald J. Trump attending the Daytona 500 for the second time. President Trump was also in attendance for the 2020 Daytona 500. President Trump and the presidential limousine known as The Beast led the field of 41 cars around the 2.5 mile Daytona International Speedway for two parade laps before pulling off the track where the president hoped to watch stage one of the Daytona 500 in a suite in the Daytona 500 Club. But after nine laps of racing, rain began to fall at Daytona International Speedway and the red flag came out to stop the race on lap 11. President Trump stayed for a few hours but left before the track was dried after a three-hour, nine-minute, 59-second red flag. Just before the race was about to resume, another brief period of rain brought the field back down pit road for another red flag that lasted 20 minutes, 29 seconds. Finally, at 6.35 p.m. Eastern Time, the green flag was back out and the biggest race of the NASCAR schedule continued. One of the drivers in this year's Daytona 500 was four-time Indianapolis 500 winner Elio Castroneves, who made his first ever NASCAR Cup Series start in the number 91 Wendy's Chevrolet, the Project 91 entry for Track House Racing. IndyCar and Indianapolis Motor Speedway owner Roger Penske had the three best cars on the track for much of the race as his trio of drivers, including three-time NASCAR Cup Series champion Joey Logano, 2022 Daytona 500 winner Austin Sendrick, and 2023 NASCAR Cup Series champion Ryan Blaney, all appear to have a Ford Mustang that could have won the Daytona 500. The three Penske drivers led a combined 125 laps in the 201-lap race, with Sindrik leading the most laps with 59, Logano was next with 43, and Blaney led 23 laps. But two major crashes at the end of the race created a stunning finish, as none of the three team Penske drivers ever made it to the checkered flag. Instead, it was William Byron of Hendrick Motorsports who won the Daytona 500 for the second year in a row. Byron was ninth coming out of turn two on the final lap, but when Denny Hamlin and Sendrick were in a crash on the backstretch while fighting for the win, Byron was able to thread his way through the carnage and won the race. The 67th Daytona 500 was another wild and memorable day, and in the end, team owner Rick Hendrick won the Daytona 500 for the 10th time, breaking a tie with Petty Enterprises. Byron is the first driver to win back-to-back Daytona 500s since Denny Hamlin in 2019 and 2020. Byron joins back-to-back winners Richard Petty, 1973 and 74, Kale Yarbrough, 1983 and 84, Sterling Marlin, 1994 and 95, and Hamlin. As for Castroneves, he was part of a seven car crash on lap 72 and was out of the race. The four time Indy 500 winner was credited with a 39th place finish. Castroneves texted me Sunday night after the race and said he hopes to return for next year's Daytona 500 because he has unfinished business. All of us here at Pit Pass Indy want to congratulate William Byron of Hendrick Motorsports for winning his second straight Daytona 500. Castroneves wasn't the only Indianapolis 500 winner at this year's Daytona 500. Scott Dixon, a 2008 Indianapolis 500 winner and a six-time NTT IndyCar Series champion, was at the race as a spectator. Two-time and back-to-back Indianapolis 500 winner Josef Newgarden of Team Penske was also at the Daytona 500 to support Team Penske's NASCAR program. Both drivers were on the Fox Daytona 500 pre-race show and were interviewed by former Daytona 500 winner Jamie McMurray, who is part of Fox Sports' NASCAR television team. I caught up with Newgarden after his appearance on Fox on a very windy day at Daytona for this exclusive Pit Pass Indy interview. We've seen the commercials on Fox. Today you were actually on Fox. So the promotion that they've put into the IndyCar series is really, really cool. So it's getting closer. How do you feel?

JOSEF:

Excited. I think everybody is, you know, up and down the, across the board, I should say, you know, whether it's the drivers or team owners or it's fans or mechanics, everybody's really excited to see the show in 2025. And I think Fox has, you know, already been Delivering we haven't even started yet, and they've been delivering in a tremendous way, so I'm very excited for the year And then you know on a performance note. I think the two cars in a good spot We've got a great team as always not a lot of change on the two car. You know it's Holistically going to be the same as what it was So excited to get the year going

BRUCE:

And how cool is it that finally the Indianapolis 500 winner and the Daytona 500 are all on the same broadcast?

JOSEF:

Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, it's a big deal for Fox. You know, you look at the entire calendar, you know, they started out with the Super Bowl and then they're going to take the Daytona 500 here and then they're going to be running the Indianapolis 500. I mean, those are the three biggest events, arguably, in the United States across the year. It's a big deal I think for them and certainly for us to be involved in it too is massive. You just can't wait. I think they've really got a good program in place and are going to show the product really well.

BRUCE:

And how cool was it that Josef Newgarden was on the Super Bowl broadcast?

JOSEF:

It's really cool what Fox has done. They're telling the story. I think they're trying to capture the characters of the sport and build a picture for people. Have a reason for people to tune in. Whether you like or dislike certain individuals, you've got to feel something about them. I think Fox is going to bring that to the front. And also, how many Daytona 500s have you been to? I've only probably been to, I think this is my third Daytona 500 in person that I've been to, so excited to be here, cheering on Joey, but cheering on Team Penske as a whole, and always fun to see this race. It's called the Great American Race, it's a big event, and it's a good way to start the season.

BRUCE:

And finally, speaking of Team Penske, Austin Cedric's had a pretty good week. Yeah, very good. Three really good opportunities there, so would you be shocked if a Team Penske driver doesn't win today?

JOSEF:

Well, I'd probably put it the other way. If one of them wins, I definitely won't be shocked. I'm never shocked if a Team Penske car wins. Tough race to get right, though. So much can happen. It's kind of like Indy. Regardless of how strong your cars are and how strong the team is, it can go sideways in an instant. So I'm hoping that they have some good fortune today and they're in position and then they can capitalize on that, but they definitely have the speed. You look at the two cars specifically, I think all of them have speed, but they're gonna have a shot at it.

BRUCE:

Steve Phelps is NASCAR president, and the Daytona 500 is NASCAR's biggest race. Phelps oversees one of the biggest sports properties in America, and in 2025, NASCAR begins a new media rights contract with the NASCAR Cup Series on Fox Sports, Amazon Prime, TNT Max, and NBC Sports. All NASCAR Xfinity Series races will be on the CW for the first time in history. Phelps joined me for this exclusive interview for Pit Pass Indy. You got a guy like Elio Castronez in the Daytona 500. Not that this race needs a boost, but it just adds to the luster of it. So, how important was it for him to be able to get a deal put together and run it?

STEVE:

Yeah, I'm excited that he's here. You know, kudos to Justin Marks, who continues to push the envelope to bring You know, drivers who have not traditionally been in a NASCAR, like an SVG, and to have him now full-time in the Cups here is exciting. But having Castroneves here with all the success that he's had in IndyCar and, you know, he's a name, right? And a hell of a race car driver. So, you know, he filled the requirements to come race here, and that was important. And so, again, my hat's off to both, you know, Castor Nevis as well as to Justin Marks. And it's a good thing for our sport.

BRUCE:

From a flip side, Kyle Larson running the Indy 500, that also has benefits for NASCAR. So we're starting to see a little bit more of this happen in this era. How important is that from a business standpoint? Because basically if you turn on people from other genres, that helps the business model.

STEVE:

Of course it does. Listen, it's not each of these racing series is mutually exclusive from a fan perspective. There is some crossover. Some series more than others, but having Kyle Larson do the double It's fantastic. So we're a partner with Hendrick Motorsports and Amazon to chronicle what's gonna happen there. And it's exciting. It's exciting for IndyCar. It's exciting for NASCAR. It's exciting for all those fans of Kyle Larson as well. And those go certainly past asphalt, goes into dirt and anything else that that man decides to strap in and go run.

BRUCE:

You've had a 25-year relationship with Fox. They just come off the Super Bowl. They had commercials for both Daytona 500, NASCAR, IndyCar series. How valuable are those commercials during the Super Bowl?

STEVE:

I think it's huge. I think that Fox's promotion during the NFL playoffs overall was great. But, you know, it's the single most watched event, you know, in the country, year after year after year. And so when Fox has it and they're promoting the Daytona 500, that's huge for us. Gets you off to a good start. And it obviously, all our most ardent fans, they know when it is, but it helps with the casual fan. And, you know, the Daytona 500 has more casual viewers than any other race that we have. So that's a good thing.

BRUCE:

They've aggressively promoted their new property and even though that's not your series, but how entertaining do you find those IndyCar commercials?

STEVE:

I think yeah, I think they did a good job with them and you know to me it's We want to root for IndyCar and they want to root for us because having motorsports, F1 for that matter, and any other motorsport, having motorsports rise helps everybody. And honestly, as the king of the hill here in the States, it is especially good for NASCAR.

BRUCE:

And how do you quantify the value of a NASCAR commercial on the Super Bowl?

STEVE:

It's hard to quantify, really. I think intuitively it would make sense that, hey, this is a big deal, right? And you think about the number of people who are watching. And they did a good job. It wasn't just one spot. They had lots of different promotional lead-ins and whatnot that were all a constant reminder that, hey, this is a nice deal here at the Super Bowl. Tune in next week. You're going to see something special.

BRUCE:

And finally, Outlook for the 2025 season, at least from a media landscape, you've got a lot of new partners on. Different parts of the schedule will be broken up with new partners and just how excited is that? Are you from that? How much can we See a increase in growth possibly.

STEVE:

Yeah, I think you know the distribution has changed obviously we hadn't really had any streaming Before this year. I think it's important to do that. It's a it's a it's a platform. That's here to stay I think having Amazon Prime as a pure streamer, and then what we're gonna do with that You know Turner and Max. I think is a really a really good opportunity to show everyone that our fans are the most loyal in sports and they're gonna find us. And they're gonna find us whether we're on broadcast, cable, or streaming.

BRUCE:

We'll be right back to Pit Pass Indie after this short break. Welcome back to Pit Pass Indie. IndyCar made some major news on February 11th when it was announced that IndyCar President Jay Fry was no longer part of the organization. Moving forward, Indianapolis Motor Speedway President Doug Bowles would also become IndyCar President, putting him in charge of both organizations. Fry joined IndyCar in November 2013, and after two years as Chief Marketing Officer, he became IndyCar President after Derek Walker resigned, effective the end of the 2015 season. Fry was able to make things happen in the IndyCar panic and had lots of support from team owners, crew members, drivers, and sponsors. He was also a friend of Pit Pass Indy and we appreciate his loyalty, support, and friendship over the years. We wish Jay Fry the best of luck in wherever he goes next and also wish Bull success in his dueling roles as president of both IndyCar and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. With the conclusion of the Daytona 500, Pit Pass Indy was off to Sebring, Florida to cover IndyCar Spring training at Sebring International Raceway. The full lineup of IndyCar teams and drivers tested on Monday, February 17th and Tuesday, February 18th as they prepare to start the 2025 season next week on the streets of St. Petersburg. The Firestone Grand Prix of St. Petersburg begins Friday, February 28th with practice. The starting lineup will be determined in qualifying on Saturday, March 1st, and the big race will be Sunday, March 2nd. This year's Firestone Grand Prix of St. Petersburg will be the first of 17 races televised on Fox. It's the first time in IndyCar history that all races will be televised by the same major network. Fox will also air both days of qualifications for the 109th Indianapolis 500 in May, giving IndyCar 19 television events. One of the IndyCar officials who was quite busy at the two-day test was Darren Sansom, the managing director of engine development for IndyCar. PitPass Indy interviewed Sansom during the off-season at the IndyCar offices in Indianapolis. Here is part one of that exclusive interview. One of the great things about the IndyCar off season is we get a chance to do some deep dive behind the scenes interviews with key people at IndyCar. Today we're joined by Darren Sansom, the managing director of engine development, a key figure in the development of the hybrid assist unit. Midway through the season, we debuted the hybrid assist unit. Some teams were happy, some other teams may not have been, but as we get ready to go into 2025, what types of improvements might we see with the hybrid assist for next season?

DAREN:

So we're actually going through a program of upgrades right now with the system, nothing to the hardware, but it's some of the software and the operational limits. We're looking at increasing some of those. to get a little bit more energy out of the system. I think it'll be mostly noticeable at the short ovals, which is where we, I guess we saw the, we felt that it was where it was least effective from both the driver feedback and what we could see from the data. So we're in the process of doing some validation right now with one of the engine manufacturers and should be able to finalize that bit here before the break.

BRUCE:

Now, the addition of the hybrid assist unit did increase the horsepower, but part of it was offset by an added weight. How much can we see a change in that this year?

DAREN:

So the horsepower, the absolute horsepower number will stay the same, but the time that you can deploy the system, both on a individual deployment on the ovals and over the whole lap will increase. We're planning around a 20% increase.

BRUCE:

When we started off with the hybrid assist at the short oval at Iowa Speedway, it came after a pretty good race at Mid-Ohio, which was the debut of the hybrid assist unit. I think a lot of drivers, because it was a double header and also the track surface, was a little bit different at Iowa because of the two different surfaces. There was a little bit of criticism because of the added weight, but I do believe that in the rest of the short oval races that concluded the season, the racing far exceeded what a lot of people thought was going to happen. Did it really surprise you that it was that good?

DAREN:

Certainly I think that a lot of the criticism from Iowa was as a consequence of just the change to the track. I don't think we would have seen a very different result had the hybrid not been in the car. But for sure it did surprise us how good the racing was at the remaining short ovals and we've got some data to show that for sure the hybrid was being used a lot during passing.

BRUCE:

A lot of fans have always wanted to see more horsepower go back to the 900, 1,000 horsepower days that we remember from the 80s and 90s. Do you think a lot of them had unrealistic expectations of how big a change the hybrid assist unit was going to be as far as what they could see and sense visually?

DAREN:

Yeah, I think expectations were pretty high. And as you said, the weight somewhat offset the performance increase from the extra power.

BRUCE:

Now, a lot of fans will complain about why using a hybrid, we don't need it, we need raw speed, raw horsepower, but they often need to be reminded like every hour that you have manufacturers involved. And manufacturers want to have a little bit of technology transfer and relevance, because they're spending millions of dollars to be part of this series. So how important was the entire project Because you've got to go into the future. It's like, if I'm making an eight-track tape player, nobody's buying eight-track tapes. In fact, nobody's buying CDs anymore. It's all streaming.

DAREN:

Yeah, for sure. I mean, absolutely, the main driver was to be relevant to the manufacturers and to the future of where the automotive business is going. Clearly, There's a very high trend towards electrification and hybrids. They're going to be here definitely for the next few decades, I think, as we transition towards other technologies.

BRUCE:

There is talk of a new car, possibly by the 2027 season, although that's maybe not necessarily your area of expertise, but the hybrid assist and making the whole package fit is. So do you build around the engine and the hybrid assist? Do you factor a lot of that in when there's weight distribution and center of gravity and things of that nature?

DAREN:

So for any new entity that we do, then the hybrid will be essentially the building block that you build the car around. So you decide, okay, how does the powertrain look, including the hybrid, where does that package, and then you build the car from there. So it's essential that you know what the hybrid looks like from the ground up.

BRUCE:

So in the meantime, what can be done weight-wise or to change maybe the center of gravity in the current car?

DAREN:

I think it is quite limited what the teams can do. I'm not the expert, but my understanding is that the shift of the center of gravity towards the back of the car has actually helped the car on some of the racetracks and some of the drivers feel that it's more drivable now than without the hybrid. I've heard that comment from a few drivers.

BRUCE:

How big of an advantage will it be in 2025 to have the same unit in the car for the entire season?

DAREN:

Well, I think it will be big for the teams that we're not introducing a technology partway through the season. That was certainly pretty unusual. And it did have a lot of challenges with it. I think the teams did a great job dealing with it. I can honestly say that my biggest concern was we'd introduce a technology that would have an influence on the overall championship and I'm pleased to say I don't really think that it did. We had really only one issue that took a car out of a race and that wasn't a championship contending car at the time.

BRUCE:

Well, I guess that proves that Alex Pillow was pretty good in any type of car because he was good at the first, the non-hybrid car and the hybrid car. But as far as any other changes that we could look at for 2025 that might increase horsepower or the raceability of the cars or from your department, what you may be working on in the off-season?

DAREN:

So, as I said, the main thing that my group's been working on is the upgrade to the hybrid system, trying to get a little bit more energy out of the system, and then also just looking at the sporting regulations and trying to make the logistics easier for the teams.

BRUCE:

A lot of fans see the end of the season on September 15th, and they probably think you guys all pack up and go on a three-, four-month vacation. It's anything but. I'm sure that since September ended, Jay Fry, IndyCar President, has probably had you very busy. He's probably had you in a lot of meetings. So what have you been working on all off-season and how busy is the off-season? If you could just maybe describe to our listeners, it's anything but an off-season when you work for the series.

DAREN:

Yeah, absolutely. So, right now, working on the upgrade of the hybrid system, working with the manufacturers on homologation for 2025, so every year there are certain parts that they can update and this actually was just coming up to the deadline for those parts submissions right now, so December 15. And then also, there's been a lot of activity on the new car as well, because it's in a very critical phase at the moment where we're trying to finalize what that looks like.

BRUCE:

A year ago at this time, one of the engine manufacturers, Honda, was making a little bit of noise about wanting changes, or they may not renew to stay with IndyCar, but they have seemed to be pleased with the hybrid project. Have you seen them more engaged in 2024 than necessarily the way they were in 2023?

DAREN:

Yeah, we've been very engaged with Honda because Honda actually, from a project management perspective, they led the hybrid introduction. So the work that we've done with Honda this year has been very close, as well as with GM and Ilmore as a partner. But for sure, my engineers and their engineers have worked very, very closely, so they seem very engaged in the series right now.

BRUCE:

One of the things that they were pushing was perhaps the same actual ICU, internal combustion engine, and then Chevrolet and Honda do all the software. Is that a viable alternative and is that something that's being discussed?

DAREN:

I can't really go into a lot of the details that's being discussed for the future, but there's lots of things on the table. It certainly is an exciting time that we're looking at things from a different perspective for sure.

BRUCE:

So if we could look at your background, if you could tell our listeners how you got started in racing and where you've been.

DAREN:

So I graduated from university with an automotive engineering degree, which is basically mechanical engineering in 93 and actually started doing internal combustion engine development straight out of college. I was at Ford Research for a year and then did my time at Cosworth. A couple of years at Integral Powertrain, which is now rebranded to Helix. They're actually an MGU manufacturer now. Back then they were an engineering consultant that was doing some internal combustion engine work as well. And then I moved to Ilmore Engineering in 2002, which is really when I started in racing. That was on the Honda IndyCar program. I was on that program through 2009. And then in 2009, IndyCar had gone single manufacturer, so there was less development work to be done. And I had an opportunity to come to the US and work on Roger Penske's NASCAR program. So, moved over to NASCAR and was on that program for Dodge and Roger until it closed in 2012. And then did a short stint with TRD. Also on NASCAR program before and coming back to my roots here at IndyCar in 2018 as part of the sanctioning body.

BRUCE:

We were neighbors and didn't realize it because I live in Mooresville, North Carolina, which is where Team Penske's home base is. I imagine on days like this when it's snowing outside in Indianapolis, you might miss Mooresville a little bit.

DAREN:

I miss California even more, to be honest.

BRUCE:

Except for the taxes. But anyway, when you look at a lot of old-time fans and old-time drivers and crew members, remember the Indianapolis 500 of the days where it was really a race of attrition. You would see cars blowing engines throughout the race and in some ways it was really an integral part of the race. We don't have that anymore. I'd say over the last 20 years, the reliability factors to the point where you stay out of the wall, you're going to probably finish the race. Is that good or bad for racing? I know that a lot of people, obviously the manufacturers like to have reliability, but in racing, is it almost as much conserving your equipment as it is getting there, knowing that you're going to finish the race if you don't have a credit?

DAREN:

I think this is something we discuss a lot actually internally at IndyCar. A lot of people look back at their old racing and see that the racing was great back then. But then if you look at the margins of victories and the number of cars that finished the race, I don't think there's anything better than what we have now. If you stay on the track, you're probably going to finish the race. And we've had a last lap pass for the winner of the 500 the last two years. I don't think it gets any better. These are the golden years of racing, not what was in the past, in my opinion.

BRUCE:

Well, I completely agree. And the other thing that they need to realize is a blown engine in the Indy 500 is a safety factor. somebody gets in the oil, you can have multi-car crashes, and nobody really wants to see that. You want to keep debris and everything out of the grandstand. There are people that saw a story the other day about what the new car may look like. People are advocating for a 1990s cart car, and it's like, well, how's that going into the future? It's not. But it's like people remember when they discovered the sport as being the glory days, and the glory days are probably still ahead of us.

DAREN:

Yeah, I think I agree with that. We're always working on trying to make the racing closer and it is closer than it was in the past and it's certainly a focus of the sanctioning body here to try and make the racing as good as it can be.

BRUCE:

How big is your staff and what are some of the things that each one is assigned to?

DAREN:

So I've got basically four guys work for me directly. I've got two guys, engine engineers is their job title. They basically, one takes care of one manufacturer and the other, the other. They program ECUs, we run the torque shaft program. I don't know if you knew IndyCar actually owns some of the electronics, the ECU and the boost sensor. So we manage those. We collect the data at the race events. We look at the data and make sure that manufacturers are in compliance. So not just the car rolling across the tech pad, we're looking at all the data that we collect as well. So that's primarily what those two guys do. And then I got another engineer, he takes care of electronics. Yeah, the safety electronics are on the car, they all belong to us. He also helps manage the relationship with the telemetry, with Cosworth for the low voltage. And as basically, when we rewired the car for this season for the introduction of the hybrid system, that engineering was led from him from the top down. And then the other engineer has joined us mid-season. He runs the hybrid program. So he's basically overseeing Elmore and Honda and in charge right now of this upgrade program that we're looking at for next year.

BRUCE:

We'll be right back to Pit Pass Indy after this short break. Welcome back to Pit Pass Indy. When Pit Pass Indy interviewed Darren Sansom, Jay Fry was IndyCar president. One of the questions we asked Sansom in part two of our exclusive interview was about Jay Fry. Although Fry is no longer part of IndyCar, we have left the question, what is it like to work for Jay Fry in the interview because Sansom gave a pretty good answer. Here is part two of our exclusive interview with Darren Sansom for Pit Pass Indy. What is a typical race weekend like for you?

DAREN:

So, typically race weekend for me, we normally show up the day before. My group, we lock the ECUs, so the ECU software is fixed and the manufacturer can only run the level that that we'd say that they can run, the ECU will only accept that. We set those ECUs up at the start of the weekend. And then as we go into the weekend, for me personally, it's an opportunity to meet with a lot of the vendors, I meet with the manufacturers every weekend. So I'm working a lot on future regulations and both for this season and next season, as well as gathering, helping gathering data and just fixing problems as they come along.

BRUCE:

Just to throw a wild idea out there, if the ECU didn't control what they were allowed to do, how fast could we possibly be seeing these guys run?

DAREN:

I think the engines are capable of a lot more horsepower. But like you said, they're also now very reliable. So, there's always that trade-off of power versus reliability. So, an engine now does 2,500 miles approximately. Back even in 2003, when I joined the series, an engine was a one-race deal. So, for sure, you could make a lot more performance. I don't want to speculate on how much that might be, but I'm sure you could. If we have 700 on a road course right now, you could, with boost, you could probably push it to 800, 900, probably.

BRUCE:

Well, and the other thing, like I said earlier, safety has to be a consideration, and also what Firestone, what the tires are capable of doing, and all that has to be an equation that works. Because if one of it's out of balance, then it's probably not going to really be competitive or entertaining. Or safe, that's the big one. Yes, or definitely safe. When you started, would you say racing was more mechanical or electronic? Because now I believe it's more electronic. than mechanical because we've pretty much advanced to the technologies of mechanical capabilities. When did you start to see that shift?

DAREN:

I'm not sure I totally agree. I think these engines are actually pushed to very, very high levels of stress. And the level of mechanical development that goes into them isn't really seen. And we are quite restrictive. The electronics are quite... They're very defined. The software is very defined. It's agreed with the manufacturers. It's not a... It's not all just defined by IndyCar. We involve the manufacturers in any changes we make to the software. So there is a level of competitiveness on the software side, but I think there's also a very high level still for the engines on the mechanical side that you don't necessarily see that.

BRUCE:

So mechanical development, is that the types of alloys or the types of composites that may be used to build even stronger engine parts than you may have seen five, 10 years ago?

DAREN:

It's not so much in the material development because we are quite, again, we're very restrictive on what materials they can use in order to try and keep a cap on costs. Because if you start developing new materials, the costs get very, very high very quickly. But it's all, it's in the detail of the fine design and the quality of the components. So the engines are extremely highly stressed and the manufacturers have to work very hard on making the quality of the parts and the consistency of the parts in order to be able to do what they do.

BRUCE:

So how much of the technology can be transferred to the production side of the automotive industry?

DAREN:

That's always a good question and hotly debated. Often the technologies are not directly, but it's the training of the people and the mindset that is transferable.

BRUCE:

Well, I remember talking to some people at other engine companies in the past, and they were saying, what you want to do is get the most power out of the smallest power plant that's the most efficient. And I think we've seen that in racing. These engines really aren't really big, but they put out a heck of a lot of horsepower and speed. Isn't that something that's important in the automotive industry is power down the road and have great fuel mileage and still be able to get some horsepower out of it when you put your foot on the accelerator?

DAREN:

Yeah, absolutely. Same goal. I think the automotive world, they're looking for power density in order to improve fuel consumption. We're looking for power density to go faster. The ultimate goal is very similar. But again, the direct transfer of technology from what we do on our engines to production cars is isn't a direct path, but it's an indirect path.

BRUCE:

It also seems like the appetite for the electric vehicle is not as high with the automotive industry today as it may have been a year or two ago. It seems now that there's more interest in hybrid engines because they still reduce the carbon footprint and give you some speed. Do you see that in racing that there's probably the hybrid era is going to be a little longer than a lot of people may have thought?

DAREN:

Yeah, I think I kind of alluded to that at the start of the interview that I think hybrids are going to be around for a few years yet. It is a bridge technology to whatever the next technology is, but battery-only vehicles, B-BEVs, haven't fully taken a foothold in the market as much as I think the expectation was. for, I'm sure, many different reasons. But I think that the manufacturers are turning to hybrids as a very good interim solution until there is a, I guess, for want of a better word, a better solution than where battery vehicles are at the moment.

BRUCE:

So what's it like working for Jay Fry? He's a guy that's always on the go and has some big ideas and some ambitions. He's a team player, but he does demand out of his staff to, as he says, get things done. And I've cleaned that up a bit.

DAREN:

Yeah, that's not quite how he puts it, but, uh, uh, no, Jay, Jay's a great guy to work for. He gave, he gives us a lot of, uh, a lot of autonomy actually, as long as, uh, uh, He does ask a lot to be done, but he also gives you a lot of resource to do that with.

BRUCE:

Well, the other thing about Jay is he's usually one of the first guys to show up at the track and one of the last to leave. So, when you have a leader that shows that, it's probably pretty easy for the rest of the troops to follow. Yeah, occasionally you can beat him in, but it's not very often. And also, from your background, what did the Indianapolis 500 mean to you and what do you recall the first time you were part of the Indy 500?

DAREN:

So, coming from Europe, I'd say the Indy 500 wasn't as big a part of my youth as if you were from India or just from the US in general. I guess my... passion was Formula One, like most people from the UK that are into motorsport. It's seen as the pinnacle. I really learned about the Indy 500 when I started working for Ilmore. But my early memories of the Indy 500 was my first visit to the racetrack was, I think, 2004 for qualifying. And... Just, I was blown away by the place. I was blown away by the spectacle and just, you know, it's, it means everything now.

BRUCE:

And by the end of that race, you were almost literally blown away because there was a tornado down by Union Jack, which is about a mile away from here. The race ended under some severe weather. It's a different world in Formula One. Do you look at Formula One now as They've done a lot in terms of creating a show. Personally, I don't think the racing is as competitive as it is, but it's also highly technical and you have to really be involved in that to appreciate it that much. But now that you're not involved in Formula One, what's your viewpoint of how that series is?

DAREN:

So I agree that the racing is generally is not not as good. They do produce a great show. There's, I think, for sure, room for both Formula 1 and IndyCar. They're quite different disciplines. I see that Formula 1 is probably going to get to a plateau because they can't add that many more races to their schedule. So, from a global popularity, it's hard to see how they're going to grow that much further. For sure, it's interesting, the technology. And it's interesting that from an engineering perspective, clearly there's a lot more freedom and the progress of the technology is very, very fast. But the entry cost of that series is very, very significant.

BRUCE:

Mine have a certain segment of IndyCar fans that are always advocating that IndyCar needs to be more like Formula One. My attitude's always been they should be less like Formula One. They should be the best IndyCar series that they can be. IndyCar is unique. It's a unique form of racing, and I think it always should be unique. When you hear people talk about, oh, it'd be great if we had more technology, what do you think?

DAREN:

I think that more technology is most likely only going to lead to bigger differences between the front and the back of the grid, and the racing product will end up being not as good. I think the strength of the IndyCar series is really the diversity that we have. Not so much in the car and the technology, but we have diversity in engine manufacturers, and we have diversity in drivers, and we have bigger than any series you can think of diversity in the type of racetrack that we race on.

BRUCE:

And also the health of the series. I can't think of another time when it's been this healthy. You could probably go back to the pre IndyCar days. Cart had some big fields of like 28 cars, but we've seen IndyCar during your time where there might've been 18 car starting lineups. And now we had to come up with a charter system because there's so much demand and people wanting to be part of the show. So I guess that only shows what health that there is in IndyCar at the moment.

DAREN:

Yeah, I think the series looks like it's doing very, very well. I think that's partly, you know, it's because of the potential for a new team to come in and be competitive.

BRUCE:

And how excited are you to turn the page to 2025 and then actually be able to get back into some open testing?

DAREN:

I'm ready to go, yeah. I was looking, we were actually booking the travel for the Sebring test earlier today and I'm like, yeah, let's go.

BRUCE:

Yeah, having been to Sebring numerous times, you don't have a whole lot of choice of restaurants down there. Darren Sansom, IndyCar, Managing Director of Engine Development. Darren Sansom of IndyCar, thank you for joining us on Pit Pass Indy.

DAREN:

Thank you very much, appreciate it. Thank you.

BRUCE:

And that puts a checkered flag on this edition of Pit Pass Indy. We want to thank our guests, two-time and defending Indianapolis 500 winner, Josef Newgarden, who talked to us at the 67th Daytona 500, NASCAR President Steve Phelps, and IndyCar Managing Director of Engine Development, Darren Sansum, for joining us on today's podcast. Along with loyal listeners like you, our guests help make Pit Pass Indy your path to victory lane in IndyCar. We'll have a special bonus edition of Pit Pass Indy later this week with exclusive interviews from IndyCar Spring Training at Sebring, Florida. So be sure to check it out. For more IndyCar coverage, follow me at X, previously known as Twitter, at BruceMartin, one word, uppercase B, uppercase M, underscore 500. This has been a production of Evergreen Podcast. A special thanks to our production team, executive producers are Bridget Coyne and Gerardo Orlando. Recordings and edits were done by me, Bruce Martin, and final mixing was done by Dave Douglas. Learn more at evergreenpodcast.com. Until next time, be sure to keep it out of the wall.